broaching

Submitted by frank barbehenn on Mon, 01/02/2006 - 13:10
As a novice, it is not clear to me what the conditions are for creating a broach in the scot and how one prevents it. I read somewhere that one never wants to head up into the wind when a puff hits but continue downwind and even bear off more to "keep under" the sail. I am not sure what that means. Besides, someone in my fleet advised that I could head up a bit into the wind to take the puff more broadside. According to him, that would move the sail into a smaller angle of incidence and spill the wind more. Any thoughts anyone?
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Comments

I have some knowledge and experience with this subject.

Submitted by knotguilty on Tue, 01/03/2006 - 18:02.
I have some knowledge and experience with this subject. Who doesn't at some point in their career? Each time that I have gone over it was in a race where I was pushing the boat and being overly aggressive. I have not gone over yet when pleasure sailing on my Scot. Both of the things that you have read and/or where told are correct but apply at different times and for different reasons. Here is what I know. Upwind in a blow you have several options for preventing a broach. Normally, you probably already have the crew on the windward side; Get them there if not. You can let out the main and jib or flatten the sails with the outhaul, cunningham and vang or some combination of all of the above. You can also head up which is what you were told ; that is sail into the wind. Greg Fisher as you have referenced in other treads talks about that 4th or 5th "gear" and it's possible for short periods of time, in a puff, to feather up with the jib breaking as much a 8 inches back and make significant progress sailing to windward in this mode. This is the ultra point mode. This "gear" comes with practice, lots of it to get the proper feel. You also have to be in control of the boat and have good speed to begin with. Short and steep waves make it difficult to perform this maneuver. Practice, practice and practice some more to get the proper feel of when you can do it and for how long. Downwind. If the rudder comes out of the water in a puff and you're already heeling, you're probably going for a swim. That's why you bear off in a puff when going downwind as it keeps the rudder in the water and the boat in control. How to keep the rudder in the water? My advice is to let out the main, easy or "blow out" the spinnaker sheets which means to let both the guy and the sheet go. Heel to weather as well. If you do go over, save the mast. That is prevent it from sinking and thus turtling the boat. On my boat, if its windy to start with we sometimes sail with a mast floatation device sold by Flying Scot. It keeps the mast from sinking, weighs only a few pounds and it works. For all other times, I send the lightest person to swim to the top of the mast and place a spare life jacket or the throw cushion at the top while the heavest person gets on the centerboard and starts the recovery process. I wish this thing had a spell check. Good luck. Willson

Wilson: Thanks for the help.

Submitted by frank barbehenn on Tue, 01/03/2006 - 22:24.
Wilson: Thanks for the help. But how does one get into trouble going downwind in the first place? And if one is going downwind, bearing off puts one in threat of accidental jibing doesn't it? Any further thoughts? Frank

quote:[i]Originally posted by frank barbehenn[/i] [br]Wilson:

Submitted by Transom on Wed, 01/04/2006 - 09:03.
quote:
[i]Originally posted by frank barbehenn[/i] [br]Wilson: Thanks for the help. But how does one get into trouble going downwind in the first place? And if one is going downwind, bearing off puts one in threat of accidental jibing doesn't it? Any further thoughts?
Bearing off should not accidently jibe you going downwind, although it may tip you over. Imagine you are going straight downwind and a big puff comes straight behind you. You should accelerate straight forward (assuming you have the sails set properly). Now imagine that the wind is coming slightly at an angle over the back of the boat. That big puff will lean the boat over. Now, think about the wind if is is coming more beam on, the big puff may push you right over. If you were fairly beam on and the big puff came, you heel over considerably, but if you headed more downwind, then the leaning should lessen (as the the force acting on the boat is more in direct line with the centerline) and you may accelerate some more, but hopefully not go over. This, I think, would be more recommended. If you were going downwind and thought that you might go over, I would not recommend heading up into the wind even more (having the wind more beam on). The force of spinaker would be acting closer to 90 degrees to the centerline of the boat. I think that what the person was saying was that by heading up into the wind, the sails would no longer be optimally set and therefore the wind could not act upon them as much, reducing your chance of going over. There is a chance that the spinaker would collapse if you headed up without adjusting it, but it is still a large piece of windage for the wind to grab hold of. I would head downwind and/or let the sheet and guy go to reduce the force of the wind on the sail. Spell check would be great.

Frank, I found out another way to go over when sailing down win

Submitted by jfssail on Wed, 01/04/2006 - 12:25.
Frank, I found out another way to go over when sailing down wind. A number of years back Martha and I were sailing the Wife-Husband at Deep Creek, MD. Conditions were cold and very windy. When trying to set the spinnaker going downwind, it got fouled around the forestay, which the crew could not untangle. I shouted to Martha to grab the tiller and I moved on deck to un-snarl the spinnaker. Guess what? A puff came and In less than one minute we went over and swamped the boat and had to be towed to shore. Jack F. Stewart FS 1342

Thanks for the help on this.

Submitted by frank barbehenn on Wed, 01/04/2006 - 13:00.
Thanks for the help on this. I think I am beginning to get more of a picture on this. If one heels too far over going downwind, it's like trying to keep a car from turning over rounding a curve. You need to steer into the direction on the potential turnover to right the car. But if one is going directly downwind, let's say without a spinnaker, and the bow digs into the water big time, how does one recover? Frank

Frank, I learned many years ago, and after sailing 15 Midwinter

Submitted by jfssail on Wed, 01/04/2006 - 18:08.
Frank, I learned many years ago, and after sailing 15 Midwinters at St Andrews Bay that even after moving every one back as far as you can in the cockpit, the third person spends most of their time bailing out the boat. Under certain conditions, getting a wave over the bow is un-avoidable. Jack F. Stewart FS1342

I also experienced a bow going under at the '96 NAC at Oswego.

Submitted by FS5516 on Wed, 01/04/2006 - 18:38.
I also experienced a bow going under at the '96 NAC at Oswego. At the finish line, the bow went under to the point that the RC couldn't see it. They had to go by mast. Thanks to the trusty design by Sandy, it popped up like a submarine surfacing[8D] Mark FS 5516 Grey Hare

Frank, A good rule to follow is "keep the boat underneath the

Submitted by Gallus 102 on Fri, 01/06/2006 - 11:25.
Frank, A good rule to follow is "keep the boat underneath the rig". The problems start when the boat heels too much, the hull shape makes the boat carve across the wind, and that wide flat stern lifts most of the rudder out of the water. Most broach stories (my own included) involve an out-of-control spinnaker somewhere in the chain of mis-adventures leading to the moment of terror. When the spinnaker gets loose (bad hoist, hour-glass, caught in the fore-triangle, twist, bad jibe, flying sheet/guy, etc.) it will pull straight down-wind. In all the confusion and excitement, it is likely that the boat won't be headed quite the same direction. The vector between the wind and whatever orientation the centerline of the hull is will determine your fate over the next few seconds. If things get crazy, bear off and try to keep the boat flat enough to steer. The helm is your primary control. Don't take short-cuts on your spinnaker handling when the wind pipes up. Treat every step with full concentration; this is an un-forgiving time to make a mistake. Burying the bow happens when you overtake a wave from behind. The Scot has a broad bow which does not allow you to punch through a wave face. I would try to surf the boat on a broad reach to keep it out of the wave, if possible. It's fast and fun. BTW--Look at the photos running on the FSSA web-site (Adams Cup??) to see how the experts handle heavy air conditions. Jim Davis FS 784

Frank, The way one gets in trouble downwind is the direction of

Submitted by sam secrest on Wed, 02/15/2006 - 17:04.
Frank, The way one gets in trouble downwind is the direction of the wind changes or conditions change, as in it starts getting puffy. This is the case if you are out on the water when a front comes in. It starts getting gusty and before the wind settles down to come from one direction it is all over the place shifting from side to side. If you were sailing dead down wind and then it goes more to the port side, you adjust the spinaker, but not your heading of the boat. If the shift continues, pretty soon you are on a beam reach. At that point when a puff comes the boat heel quickly and you must steer toward the spinaker and let out the main immediately to remain upright. Hope this helps. Sam
quote:
[i]Originally posted by frank barbehenn[/i] [br]Wilson: Thanks for the help. But how does one get into trouble going downwind in the first place? And if one is going downwind, bearing off puts one in threat of accidental jibing doesn't it? Any further thoughts? Frank

Spellcheck: For Internet Explorer there is this add-on that wil

Submitted by Claus on Fri, 03/03/2006 - 11:20.
Spellcheck: For Internet Explorer there is this add-on that will do spell check for you: http://www.iespell.com/
quote:
[i]Originally posted by jfssail[/i] [br]Frank, I found out another way to go over when sailing down wind. A number of years back Martha and I were sailing the Wife-Husband at Deep Creek, MD. Conditions were cold and very windy. When trying to set the spinnaker going downwind, it got fouled around the forestay, which the crew could not untangle. I shouted to Martha to grab the tiller and I moved on deck to un-snarl the spinnaker. Guess what? A puff came and In less than one minute we went over and swamped the boat and had to be towed to shore. Jack F. Stewart FS 1342
I always wondered if it's better to let the crew untangle the spinnaker and other things and not leave the helm. The crew is may not as experienced to use the helm. Even if they are, they are probably not prepared to take over the helm, aren't aware of the wind conditions from the helmsman's perspective, and the boat is already in a more critical situation and needs full attention from the skipper.

Claus FS5074 Ames, IA