Hiking Straps, Travelers & New Booms

Submitted by bcattanach on Mon, 08/01/2005 - 20:59
Hand it to Kay Sommerfield! She really can create some emotion in the ranks of the Flying Scot class. The last issue of Scot's and Water ( if you didn't get it you shouldn't be reading this and you should become a member NOW ) has Max Hocutt writing that the Scot now needs hiking straps, a multipurchase traveler with controls to the gunwales, rerouting the main to a mid boom multipurchase arrangement and free choice to build any boom you want. I think that as long as we are going forward, a bow sprit, A - Kite, rod rigging, a foiled rudder, get rid of the lead in the centerboard, a trapeze maybe two and a lowering of the weight of the boat by 200 lbs would be in order. Could we build the jib leads towards the centerline so we wouldn't have to do that silly windward sheeting. It might ruin the lines of the seats in the boat but it would work better. Let's take a look at the Flying Dutchman, Moth and the International Canoe. Are they lively, growing classes? I think the Dutchman usually get two dozen boats to it's Nationals. There are a lot of classes of sailboats. If you don't like the Scot - just maybe you should look across the water to something else, but please don't change it. Kay - you are the best! Bruce Cattanach Monmouth Boat Club Jollymon #3817
‹ Silver Piper Regatta Atlantic Coast Championship 24-25 Sept ›

Comments

Right on Bruce! It amazes me that someone could sail a Flying

Submitted by HarryC on Wed, 08/10/2005 - 11:35.
Right on Bruce! It amazes me that someone could sail a Flying Scot for 25 years and still not get what makes it such a popular boat. Hiking straps would do nothing to help the Flying Scot class. It is the one key difference between the Scot and most other dinghy classes. If anything, I would like to see the Scot class explore ways to limit hiking. For example: A crew member shall be seated inboard of the gunwale (including legs) but the upper body may lean outboard. The Flying Scot was never intended to be a racing machine. A rule that limits hiking would be much more in line with the sprit of the boat than one that permits hiking straps. Harry Carpenter

I strongly agree with the sentiment to keep the basic arrangemen

Submitted by rlarson on Wed, 08/10/2005 - 20:41.
I strongly agree with the sentiment to keep the basic arrangement of the Scot as it is. One of the tremendous virtues of the Scot is its simplicity. It is quickly rigged, easy to sail, with a cockpit remarkably free of "spaghetti". That is in large part why our family moved from the Thistle to the Scot, and probably explains why, despite being designed 10 years afterwards, the Scot is well on the way toward 6000 hulls built whereas the Thistle only recently passed the 3000 mark. People often bring up the issue of hiking straps as a safety issue, the apparent point being that since you have to be hanging out there, safety dictates something to hang onto. But IN SIXTY YEARS BEHIND THE MAST Douglass comments that you don't hike a boat flat, you sail it flat. So the point about needing to hike really begs the question. Mr. Carpenter;'s suggestion, to require an inboard crew member, is an interesting one.

Why are we approaching 6000 boats? Sandy designed two others bef

Submitted by wbross1 on Mon, 08/22/2005 - 08:54.
Why are we approaching 6000 boats? Sandy designed two others before the Scot and learned from his mistakes. Leave it alone. There are all kinds of hiking opportunities in other classes. Bill Ross, FS/5210 Commodore FSSA

Bill Ross  F/S 6020

Chairman FSSA National Championship Committee

Another testiment to the Scot and it's strong class is it's sele

Submitted by FS5257 on Mon, 08/22/2005 - 22:21.
Another testiment to the Scot and it's strong class is it's selection for both the Adams and Mallory Cup's, featuring the best and brightest sailors in the world. These sailors and our national organizing body can chose any boat, the latest equipment and sailed on any venue without normal constraints that the 'rest' of sailors face. Do they chose a high tech carbon thread factory? No, they select a boat that showcases their skills as sailors and the pure essence of boat speed. When the advocates of "advancing the fleet" can actually sail there exsisting Scot to it's ability level of say a Fisher or Eagan, it's time to pack your tent and move on to another class, because there are many, many truly great sailors in the Scot class that can be on top at any given time and invest many years in pursuit of that expectation, all the while realizing that they are not getting everything out of what they already have on board. Leave well enough alone, my Mom always told me.

To say that our class does not allow hiking is nuts! Just look

Submitted by sharpr on Thu, 08/25/2005 - 14:10.
To say that our class does not allow hiking is nuts! Just look at the pictures of the sailors at the North Americans and Midwinters. They are hiking as much as anyone sailing a boat with hiking straps! If we really want to be a non hiking class, then we should make a rule that says if any part of the sailor is outside of a veritical line extending up from the gunwale, you're in violation of the no hiking rule and you'll have to take a penality. If this can't/won't be done, put in hiking straps! It will make it easier for everyone to get over the side, not just the super fit. I've sailed several regattas where it was windy and sailors came off the water with their backs all fetched up because we weren't hiking - just heavy leaning! I don't care which way we go, but I don't like where we are now.

I like Harry's restriction better.

Submitted by Claus on Fri, 08/26/2005 - 14:03.
I like Harry's restriction better. Keep the butt-cheeks on the deck. I always do that as a skipper just because my crew goes balistic if I'm not on the rudder. ...did I tell you the story when I did an unannounced man over board drill and abandoned the tiller? We were tacking and gybing several times without anybody on the tiller while my crew ... stable boat I say...

Claus FS5074 Ames, IA

I’m not so sure a hiking ban is such a good idea.

Submitted by Gallus 102 on Mon, 08/29/2005 - 11:32.
I’m not so sure a hiking ban is such a good idea. A ban would be impractical, un-enforceable, and un-needed. Racing a Scot requires the skipper and crew to be constantly moving about the boat in order to maintain a proper trim. The wind, course, wave, and tactical conditions are very dynamic---so proper trim is a moving target, as well. Limiting where we can place our centers-of-gravity is therefore a limit in our boat handling. What really counts in hiking is the distance from the meta-center of the boat to the crews’ center of gravity. The maximum leverage occurs when the Scot is heeled around ten degrees. The meta-center moves over to the leeward chine from the centerline. Your center of gravity is best positioned by getting your hips outboard of the gunwhale. Further leaning doesn’t get you that much more and the return on exertion drops off pretty fast. Unless you can get a lot further out (trapeze, wings, or sliding seat), geometry limits the driving power. How would a rule like this be enforced? We’re not always close enough to see if someone is hanging a cheek. Though I may be somewhat flattered is if a competitor is checking my sail trim, I’d feel a bit uncomfortable if they have missile lock on my fanny. Maybe I’m just sensitive, but I’d prefer to leave this out of my sailing lifestyle. I think we already have an effective hiking limit. It’s called pain. There are only four ways to connect yourself to a Scot that I know of: putting a foot under the forward bulkhead, putting a foot under the after bulkhead, putting a foot under a cleated jib sheet, and hanging on to the hiking line. All of these hurt. Novacaine is already a controlled substance so why bother with another rule.

I agree with Harry’s post of August 10.

Submitted by jfluard on Tue, 09/06/2005 - 13:03.
I agree with Harry’s post of August 10. I think the physics in “Gallus 102”’s comments are right, but the psychology is wrong. It is clear that people are willing to suffer pain (or at least severe discomfort) to win at sports, including racing Flying Scots. The way our rules are at present, other things being equal, the stronger your upper body and the more willing you are to hang over the side, the faster you go upwind in a blow. “Gallus 102” says “Further leaning doesn’t get you that much more.” I agree, but some want that little bit more. I think a rule requiring butts to be kept on the deck, would be dangerous because one could fall to leeward when the boat heels. With guidance from the Etchells class (which also prohibits hiking straps), I have come up with the following wording for a potential new rule: “When hiking in the sitting position no part of the crew’s body between the middle of the thigh and the feet shall be outboard of the sheerline, and no part of the head shall be below the sheerline, except temporarily.” (The sheerline is where the line of the hull meets the line of the deck. This is at least a couple of inches inboard of the edge of the deck.) The question of enforcement is always there in sailing. How do we enforce the one suit of sails per year rule, or the rule against coating the hull with polymers? We do it with people’s sense of fair play, the force of social pressure, and, if necessary, with witnesses at a protest hearing. I doubt enforcement would be a problem in the Scot class. I have a photo showing a boat with one person hiking in a way that would violate my proposed rule, while the other would not. I would post it if I knew how. John Luard

quote:When hiking in the sitting position no part of the crew’s

Submitted by Claus on Tue, 09/06/2005 - 16:25.
quote:
When hiking in the sitting position no part of the crew’s body between the middle of the thigh and the feet shall be outboard of the sheerline, and no part of the head shall be below the sheerline, except temporarily.
The wording is flawed. What is "temporarily"? Is it 1 second, 5 seconds, 1 minute, a reach, or a race which has strong gusts? I really don't want a rule change. Hiking straps would just clutter up the cockpit even more. I really like the clean cockpit as it is currently, since it's versatile for racing as well as cruising. One of the many features I like about this boat. Besides hiking straps won't help many of the people that currently have problem with hiking but assist the guys that currently hang out there like crazy. On the other hand stricter rules about hiking are probably hard to enforce and may cause lots of protests. For instruction on how to post pictures check out the Including pictures and fancy links in posts thread.

Claus FS5074 Ames, IA

Claus, I agree with Harry's post.

Submitted by jfluard on Wed, 09/07/2005 - 10:45.
Claus, I agree with Harry's post. We should continue to ban hiking straps. That ban does not stop hiking. We're hiking off hand lines, sheets, shrouds, aft decks, etc. I would like the class to be more restrictive, not more liberal. I have sent you the photo by Email. I have not been able to follow the instructions to post it here. John

jfluard's picture about what hiking he thinks is acceptable and

Submitted by Claus on Wed, 09/07/2005 - 11:00.
jfluard's picture about what hiking he thinks is acceptable and what is not. Not OK on the left, OK on the right Not OK & OK fluard's image posted by his request

Just for clarity, regarding the photo, both styles of hiking are

Submitted by jfluard on Wed, 09/07/2005 - 11:55.
Just for clarity, regarding the photo, both styles of hiking are acceptable and within the rules as they are now. I think the rules would be improved by being more restrictive. John

Just how exactly is the guy on the blue boat holding on? The hik

Submitted by Tripp on Wed, 09/07/2005 - 15:10.
Just how exactly is the guy on the blue boat holding on? The hiking strap isn't THAT long. Besides, from a leverage point of view I don't think he's gained all that much over the other boat. [8] FS4830

He might be hanging on the jib sheet.

Submitted by FS5516 on Wed, 09/07/2005 - 20:15.
He might be hanging on the jib sheet. The hiking line can end in a knot but not in a loop and cannot extend past the ends of the deck. I have sailed and raced on the Scot since the mid 70's and never seen the need for a hiking strap. I have sailed in a all kinds of weather, singlehanded and even with a full load of people. The Scot is great just the way it is. Don't mess with it by adding hiking straps or any of the other items mentioned. K.I.S.S.[;)] Mark FS 5516 Grey Hare

This discussion on hiking is splitting into two questions: 1) D

Submitted by Gallus 102 on Thu, 09/08/2005 - 06:15.
This discussion on hiking is splitting into two questions: 1) Do we change the rules controlling the Flying Scot to allow hiking straps or continue as we have for the last 47 years? and 2) Do we need another rule to restrict how we hike? I am passionately supportive of continuing the ban on hiking straps that has served the class well. I am just as passionate about resisting a ruling on what kinds of hiking are allowed. One-Design sailing is Sport. That means there are restrictions in Design to limit what would otherwise be rational solutions to performance problems. We accept this because it is the nature of these arbitrary limits which define the boundaries our Sport takes place in. These design limits are meant to encourage sailors to win on the merits of their boathandling skills and tactical judgement. This was sound thinking the first time I heard Sandy Douglass explain it in 1968---and 37 years of living with it has not caused me to alter that view. My objection to hiking restrictions is in the same spirit. That kind of restriction puts limits on how we chose to apply our skills in boathandling. I believe that these choices are best resolved in the crucible of racing. What works or doesn't work gets sorted out on the course. Here's an observation from last year's Canadian Nationals. The first day had three races in very strong winds of 20-25 knots. Steve Bellows took two second place finishes that day, despite a total crew weight of no more than 300 lbs. He didn't do it with brute force or hiking like Paul Elvstrom. He did it by setting up the boat properly and handling it superbly. THAT's the beauty of this Class and we should all cherish it.

IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT! The last thing we need are new

Submitted by FS5562 on Fri, 09/09/2005 - 13:03.
IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT! The last thing we need are new rules. Should we then delve into weight limits? How about height limits? Max hiking line, no straps, period. As stated before, the beauty of the Scot is it's simplicity. Even if you and your crew can get out of your boat to the toenails, a boat with 3 or 4 will dust you upwind while having a snack and sitting on the seat. Let's have fun and go sail. PS - Does anyone have that crew on the Blue Boat in John's picture's phone #. There are some fall regatta's where he would come in quite handy. I'd like to send him o box of Krispy Kream donuts and an invitation to the NERD in October.